“动态进攻”体系是什么？美国球迷细谈其前世今生 Reddits obsession with a "free-

Reddits obsession with a "free-flowing" offense.

Reddit最近疯狂迷恋“动态进攻”体系啊，咋回事儿？

Ok, this had been annoying me for a while and it finally reached its tipping point in reading the Cavs Celtics postgame thread. r/nba seems to have this idea that the only possible offense that can work in the modern NBA is a Brad Stevens/Steve Kerr free-flowing motion offense and all I have to say is y"all have the memory of a goldfish.

好的吧，这事儿已经困扰我有一段时间了，在我看了骑凯的赛后帖之后，实在是到了忍无可忍的地步了。话题区现在产生了一种观点：在当今NBA中，只有布拉德-史蒂文森和史蒂夫-科尔的动态进攻体系才是唯一奏效的进攻方式。而我只想说，你们难道跟金鱼一样记忆力只有7秒钟嘛？？

Literally 2 seasons ago the Warriors and their free-flowing offense got beat by the Cavs and Iso ball and the season before that Lebron took them to 6 BY HIMSELF playing iso ball. People in the thread were literally saying Lebron can"t win another championship unless he buys into a pass-first system, and the only reason the iso system worked was because of players like Wade and Kyrie. Teams need to run a motion offense to maximize their role players.

就在短短两个赛季前，勇士队和他们的动态进攻体系被骑士和他们的单打战术击败了；在这之前的一个赛季，勒布朗仅仅凭借着一己之力，靠着单打将勇士队拖入到了6场苦战之中。那个赛后贴里的球迷们还真在一本正经地说，如果勒布朗不能对一个传球优先的进攻体系买账的话，他是不可能赢下另一座冠军的，还说什么他的单打体系能够奏效的唯一原因就是因为有着韦德和欧文这样的帮手，说什么联盟中的球队需要用动态进攻体系去最大化角色球员们的作用。

My only question is why are y"all acting like Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, and Klay Thompson is a team of role players. Yeah, the iso system only wins championships with stars but are we gonna act like the motion offense has done anything without a stacked team. They went to 6 games vs. Lebron with Deledova as the second best player. Then lost in seven vs Lebron and Kyrie so they decided to add Kevin motherfucking Durant.

我唯一的疑问就是，为啥你们都搞得好像凯文-杜兰特，史蒂芬-库里和克莱-汤普森是什么角色球员呢？的确，只有在拥有球星的时候单打体系才能赢得总冠军，但是我们难道要无视动态进攻也需要一支兵强马壮的球队才能运转起来这一事实吗？勇士队跟勒布朗的骑士队打了6场，而那支骑士队里第二好的球员是戴拉维多瓦。之后勇士队在抢七中输给了勒布朗和凯里-欧文，所以他们才决定把特么的凯文-杜兰特招致麾下。

That doesn"t prove the system works it just shows if you have 4 All NBA players on the roster you"ll win a championship. I"ve seen people talking about how the system only worked cause Lebron had 2 other stars and a mediocre bench when Golden state has 3 of the greatest shooters of all time, a consistent DPOY and a former Finals MVP on the roster.

这并不能证明动态进攻体系十分奏效，这只说明了如果你的球队名单中有4名能入选NBA最佳阵容的球员的话，你就能赢下一座总冠军奖杯。有些球迷说骑士的单打体系奏效是因为勒布朗有两个球星帮忙，还有一些中庸的替补球员。但你们是不是忘了勇士阵中有着史上最佳的三位射手，一位发挥稳定的最佳防守球员和一位前总决赛MVP？

Remember when Phill Jackson was a genius coach and the Triangle was a perfect system to win a championship in the NBA. Then he tried to force it in New York with Kristaps and it looked shitty. Everyone said that times had passed him and the triangle just couldn"t work in the modern NBA but I guarantee if you give Phill Jackson control of the current Golden State Roster he wins multiple championships like he did with Kobe, Shaq, Jordan, and Pippen. The NBA didn"t modernize and leave him behind it just turns out if you have a loaded team it doesn"t matter the type of offense you run.

还记得吗？菲尔-杰克逊曾是一位天才教头，而三角进攻则是赢下NBA总冠军的最完美体系。他后来尝试逼迫纽约尼克斯围绕着波尔津吉斯打三角进攻，但是结果一团糟。所有人都说菲尔-杰克逊已经过时了，三角进攻已经不再适合现代NBA篮球了，但是我敢打包票如果你把金州勇士的掌控权交给菲尔-杰克逊，他还是能像率领着科比和沙克、乔丹和皮蓬那样赢下多次总冠军。NBA并没有变得更加现代化，菲尔-杰克逊也没有过时，这只是证明了如果你的球队实力强劲天赋满满的球队，运行的进攻体系其实并不会产生什么影响。

The motion offense isn"t anything new it"s just a modern version of an offense called the wheel which was invented in the freaking 1950"s. Most freaking high school teams run a simplified version of what the college version of that was. The Showtime Lakers ran the "motion" offense in the 1980"s this isn"t something new or innovative.

动态进攻也并不是什么新发明出来的东西了，它只是上世纪50年代发明出来的“轮式进攻”的全新版本。而绝大多数高中校队都能跑跑简化版的大学里的那种动态进攻体系。在80年代的时候的Showtime湖人王朝也是打的这套动态进攻，这绝对不是什么新创造出来的体系了。

Also before I go forward I would like to point out that this offense worked for the Lakers when they had Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabar, James Worthy, Michael Cooper, and Byron Scott. Once again the offense worked because they had a freaking loaded roster.

另外我还想提一点，当时的湖人队能够玩转动态进攻体系，是因为他们队里有魔术师约翰逊，卡里姆-阿卜杜尔-贾巴尔，詹姆斯-沃西，迈克尔-库珀和拜伦-斯科特。因为他们的阵容实在是太特么的爆炸了，所以动态进攻体系奏效了。

The teams that have run the offense and won titles were all ridiculously loaded. D"antoni ran the offense in Pheonix and got run out of town because it "wasn"t viable in the playoffs" according to pundits at the time. When in reality the Sun"s roster just wasn"t as good as the Spurs or Lakers.

所有打动态进攻体系并且赢得总冠军的球队无一例外都是有着多名才华横溢的球员的。德安东尼在执教太阳的时候也靠着进攻体系打得风生水起，但是最终并没有获得成功，是因为根据当时权威人士所言“这体系在季后赛里行不通”。事实是，太阳的阵容并不像马刺和湖人那样出色。

The fact of the matter is that this motion offense isn"t something new and isn"t some unstoppable force the Warriors just have one of the most loaded teams in history (just like every other championship teams before them) and iso ball isn"t some black hole of an offense that holds your team back.

所以我想表达的是，动态进攻并不是什么新体系，也不是毫无应对办法的，勇士只是有着史上最佳阵容之一（就如同他们之前每一支获得总冠军的球队那样）；单打体系也并不是什么进攻黑洞，会拖累你的球队。

Jordan and Kobe essentially played iso ball out of the triangle and Pill Jackson told the other players if they don"t like it they can go somewhere else. Taking the ball out of the hands of one of the best scores in the history of the game so Steve Kerr or Derek Fischer could feel better about their contributions was stupid in his eyes. Whereas teams like the Warriors and Showtime Lakers are/were loaded top to bottom with players that could score so sharing the ball more made sense.

乔丹和科比本质上也是在三角进攻战术里进行单打，菲尔-杰克逊则告诉其他球员，如果你们不喜欢这种战术，那你们可以离开去别的球队。在禅师杰克逊看来，把球从历史上最佳得分手们的手上拿走，使得史蒂夫-科尔或者德里克-费舍尔这样的球员对于自己做出的贡献感觉更加良好简直是愚蠢至极。反观勇士和Showtime时代的湖人这种级别的球队，他们从上到下全都是能够得分的球员，所以更多的分享球也就变得合情合理了。

The motion offense doesn"t make sense when you have a bunch of streaker shooters because despite popular belief touching the ball 4 or 5 times before your shot but doesn"t magically make you a better shooter. Did Harrison Barnes start hitting shots because they kept giving him touches and getting him open looks? What about the 4 to 5 wide open 3"s that Draymond"s getting every game hows he shooting on those? If the Cavs or the Thunder started running the motion offense that everyone claims would make them so much better all it would do is expose the role players more.

当你拥有一堆神经刀投手的时候，动态进攻也并不会使你的进攻变得更加合理，因为，跟主流观点不同的是，投篮前触球4到5次并不会神奇般地让你变成一个更加出色的投手。举个例子，哈里森-巴恩斯开始投进球是因为其他球员给他触球次数更多，给他的空位更多吗？再说说德雷蒙德-格林，他每一场都能得到4到5次空位三分的机会，他投的又如何呢？如果骑士或者雷霆开始采用所有人都声称会让他们变得更强的动态进攻体系的话，他们只会暴露出自己角色球员的弊端。

Bad or streaker shooters are what they are a system isn"t going to change that. Remember when everyone was talking about how good Ibaka would be if instead of Westbrook he had an actual point guard that would get him the ball and was in an actual system. Then he got worse by becoming the exact same player on worse efficiency and y"all started to claim he was older than he actually was and that was why he fell off instead of admitting that maybe just maybe Westbrooks "stat padding" (linked to show they said the exact same thing about Jordan) was making Ibaka better.

糟糕的投手和神经刀投手不会改变自己的，他们就是这样的水准，进攻体系是不会改变这一点的。还记得当时大家都在说，如果伊巴卡能在一个有真正的进攻体系的球队中打球，和真正的控球后卫（而不是威少）合作，他能怎么怎么地的。然后他打得越来越差，效率越来越低。你们就开始说他真实年龄比现在要大，所以他每年才会退步。为什么你们就不承认，可能，只是可能，威少的所谓“刷数据”（文章链接是讲的乔丹打控卫刷数据的事）让伊巴卡变得更好呢？

The motion offense is not the be all end all of the NBA teams that are loaded run it because it works for them. If you don"t have a roster of shooters a different offense will probably help you more.

动态进攻并不是唯一的答案，实力强劲的球队使用动态进攻是因为这体系适合他们。如果你的阵容中没有很多射手的话，说不定其他的进攻体系会比动态进攻帮到你们更多。

[–][NJN] Vince CarterHevyWeather 454 指標 5小時前

Reddit and Twitter : Why doesn"t every team play like the Warriors??

Reddit和推特的神奇网友：“为什么各个球队不像勇士一样打球呢？”

[–]Warriorstalanted_o 127 指標 4小時前

it irritatea me when people on here say bigs are not necessary cause of the Warriors, and Rockets

勇士球迷：很多话题区的JR说什么，由于勇士和火箭，大个子球员现在已经不是球队的必需品了。我一看到这种说法就来气。

[–]Rocketsafnorth 77 指標 4小時前

its funny because the rockets relied on their main big alot this year, and Relied on Nene a decent amount last year to help Capela.

火箭球迷：这种说法挺搞笑，因为我火今年是很依赖卡佩拉的，去年的话，也挺依赖内内来帮助还没完成进化的卡佩拉。

[–]Bullsjayjude 293 指標 5小時前

The correct answer is that a teams best offensive system is determined by its players. Look at Pop and the Spurs. That man continually changes his offensive system based on the teams strength and weaknesses.

正确的回答是，一支球队的最佳进攻体系应该取决于它的球员们。看看波波维奇和马刺队吧。波波老爷子这么多年来一直在根据球队的强项和弱点改变着他的进攻体系。

However, it is fair to criticize a team sticking to one offensive strategy when it just isn"t working

不过，如果一支球队的进攻体系不起作用却还是头铁采用同一种进攻策略的话，批评一下我觉得也是没毛病的。

[–][MIA] LeBron JamesKashmir33 46 指標 4小時前

It"s not fair to criticize that teams offensive system when it was top 5 in the league while losing one of the best scorers in the NBA and replacing him with a mix of Rose/Calderon/IT coming off an iniury. On top of that the Cavs had multiple starters out for a length of time during the season. Not to mention the roster turnover at the trade deadline.

骑士失去了NBA的最佳的得分手之一，然后用罗斯、卡尔德隆和伤愈复出的小托马斯取代他，然而骑士的进攻水平却仍然处于联盟前五。如果你要批评这种情况下的骑士的进攻体系的话，我觉得就有些欠妥了。除此之外，骑士还有几位先发球员在赛季中缺席了相当一段时间的比赛。更别提在赛季中期的交易截止日前骑士队进行了大换血。

It"s actually quite absurd how they were still top 5 in the league. The big issue was and will continue to be that they are super easily exploited on defense at multiple positions and have a bunch of players not playing up to their potential.

他们（的进攻）还能保持在联盟前五的行列里还真的很让人觉得不可思议。骑士最大的问题是他们很多位置上的防守太容易被打爆了，这个问题仍会存在。而且有很多球员没有充分发挥出他们的潜力。

If they Celtics actually had to work for their baskets and if the Cavs were able to generate easy offense through their defense it would look completely different.

如果骑士能逼迫凯尔特人付出努力来得分（而不是目送上篮），如果骑士能够利用自己的防守创造一些轻松的得分机会的话，现在的局势绝对会变得完全不一样的。

[–]funk568 50 指標 4小時前

They"re literally the worst rated defense to ever make the playoffs at 29.

纵观古今，骑士的防守水平是历史上所有季后赛球队中最差的，联盟倒数第二。

[–]Pistonsaffrothunder313[S] 31 指標 4小時前

Yeah thats kind of the point I was trying to make I"ve seen a million Chris Paul was holding back the clippers by demanding the ball be in his hand posts and if the Thunder just ran a motion offense they could"ve got a title post and it kind of got annoying.

活塞球迷（楼主）：是的啊，这也是我一直想表达的观点。我在论坛里已经看过无数个“克里斯-保罗拖了快船的后腿因为他需要有球在手”、“如果雷霆使用动态进攻的话他们就能获得总冠军”这样的帖子了，看得我有点厌烦。

I"m not saying the motion offense doesn"t work if you have the right personnel.But not everyone has knockdown shooters along with a a undersized guy that can protect the rim like a center while also guarding players on the perimeter that allows them to play small.

我并不是说如果你有着合适的人手，动态进攻不会起效。但，不是所有的球队都有小手一抖出手就有的靠谱射手，也不是所有球队都有能像中锋一样护框同时也能防守外线的体型较小的内线（格林），要知道这一特性给了他们打小阵容的条件。

Its fine to say the motion offense worked for the Warriors Lakers or the Spurs, but their are people on the Pistons sub that suggest that if we run a motion offense with Drummond, Griffin, and a total of one consistent shooter in our starting lineup we would somehow be better. A motion offense is fine, criticizing a coach for the offense they run is fine but not every freaking team can be the Golden State Warriors.

你可以说动态进攻对于勇士、湖人或者马刺等队很有用，但是竟然还有人在活专区里建议说我们也应该用德拉蒙德、格里芬和首发里唯一一个稳定的投手这样的阵容打动态进攻，还说我们肯定会变得更强的。打动态进攻可以，批评教练的进攻体系也可以，但是并不是每一支队都特么是金州勇士啊。

[–]CelticsMrMojo18 59 指標 5小時前

Celtics offense right now is literally iso ball.

凯尔特人球迷：我凯现在的进攻实际上也是单打。

[–]CavaliersAsheliaDalmasca 109 指標 5小時前*

It"s hilarious considering the Cavs offense broke the playoff efficiency record last year - using the same system. And Houston"s iso offense was all-time great this season.

It"s a personnel issue, Houston doesn"t have the talent to matchup with GSW, and the non-Lebron Cavs are 9/41 from 3. Doesn"t mean it"s a bad system.

骑士球迷：想想也真是滑稽可笑，骑士队在去年刚刚打破了季后赛的进攻效率纪录——用的是完全一样的进攻体系。而且火箭本赛季的单打进攻也是首屈一指的。这完全是球队人员的原因，火箭没有足够的天赋与金州勇士匹敌，而骑士方面，除了勒布朗以外的球员在三分线外总共41投9中。这些并不意味着进攻体系很糟糕。

When you have the roster of Boston & GSW, a free flowing offense works great. But not every team can, or should, do it.

当你拥有像凯尔特人或者勇士这样的阵容时，动态进攻就会发挥出很大的作用。但并不是其他球队都应该这样做，其他球队也不一定都能这样做。

[–]NBAMintastic 15 指標 4小時前

But if the Cavs changed so drastically then shouldn"t the system change to accommodate? Just like how Spurs stopped their free flowing offense as their injuries and capabilities forced them to change and opted for a lot more LMA iso/post-ups. Cavs need to accept that Love and JR aren"t shooting well and their new pickups are garbage at spot-up perimeter shooting and need the ball and movement to be effective.

但是如果骑士经历了如此大规模的球员变动，他们的体系难道不应该随之更改并且适应吗？在饱受伤病侵袭后，马刺的能力受限，所以他们停止了动态进攻体系，转而为阿尔德里奇创造更多的单打以及低位进攻机会。骑士需要接受乐福和JR的投射并不是很顺，也要接受他们获得的新球员都很不擅长外线定点投射、需要持球并且移动起来才能变得更加高效。

[–]CavaliersAsheliaDalmasca 8 指標 3小時前

The roster didn"t really change except for the loss of Kyrie - so we lost the only other reliable playmaker/shot-creator, and replaced him with a slightly worse version. Our personnel didn"t magically change to fit a motion offense. It"s still more effective using iso plays. (This isn"t really true with our bench, though they aren"t playing as much)

骑士球迷：球队的阵容除了欧文的离开之外并没有真正的剧变——所以，也就是说，我们失去了除了詹姆斯之外唯一的可靠进攻发起点和创造投篮机会的球员，取代他则是相对差的版本（小托马斯）。我们的阵容并没有神奇般地变得适合动态进攻体系。骑士使用单打战术的时候仍然更有效率。（不过我们的替补并不是这样的，尽管他们并没有太多出场时间）

Korver & Love & JR & TT don"t particularly thrive with a movement offense. TT/Love aren"t Horford or Draymond, they can"t lead a team in assists. If we don"t shoot well, we just aren"t going to win - there"s nothing else we can do with the way the roster is constructed. Lebron isos, Love postups, Hill & Bron pick and rolls, Bron drive and kicks to open shooters. That"s just what we have.

科沃尔、乐福、JR、TT并不是那种在动态进攻里才如鱼得水的球员。TT和乐福并不是霍弗德或者德雷蒙德-格林这种类型的球员，他们不会成为球队的助攻王。如果我们的投射不理想，那我们就没有赢球的希望——根据目前这个阵容结构，我们真的想不出其他的什么办法。勒布朗单打，乐福低位强吃，希尔和勒布朗打挡拆，勒布朗突破分球给外线的空位投手。我们所有的战术都在这儿了。

[–]SunsZeiZaoLS 12 指標 2小時前

Korver (Hawks under Bud) and Love (Wolves with Rick Adelman/Flip Saunders) are both excellent in a motion offense. Also related, Love is an excellent high post passer, he averaged 4.4 APG one season in a previously mentioned offense. George Hill and Rodney Hood have previously done well in motion offenses as well, and Jordan Clarkson is an okay read-and-react player. JR and TT though are kind of hard to trust, I"ll give you that.

科沃尔（布登霍尔泽执教的老鹰时期）和乐福（阿德尔曼、桑德斯执教的森林狼时期）在动态进攻体系中的表现都非常出色。另外提一点，乐福也是个非常出色的高位策应手，他在之前的一个赛季里曾经场均4.4次助攻。乔治-希尔和罗德尼-胡德之前在动态进攻体系中的表现可圈可点，乔丹-克拉克森也是个还过得去的“阅读球场信息并作出反应”的球员。至于JR和TT，他们确实靠不住，这点我承认。